Skip to content

Today's Creation Moment

Nov
25
The Mysterious Rings of Uranus
Genesis 1:16
"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
Space probes have now reached the farthest points of our solar system, and we have learned more about the outer planets in 24 hours than astronomers learned in the past century. For example, we have...
RSS

LOGICAL FALLACIES OF EVOLUTION 101: BEGGING THE QUESTION

 

Today's guest blogger is Rod Carty, a friend of Creation Moments who serves as a co-administrator in our Facebook groups. An avid creationist, scientist and teacher, Rod frequently uses his understanding of logical fallacies to let evolutionists know when they are using them in our Facebook groups.
It seems to me that the most common fallacy I encounter is "begging the question." A very common example of this comes in the form of, "There wasn't enough water in the Biblical Flood to cover all the mountains" or "Where did all the water go?" 
What they are asserting is that there wasn't enough water to cover the present-day mountains. This is fallacious because they are presuming evolutionary time scales for the rates of the mountains forming – that is, millions of years. This means that the mountains we have today would have been nearly identical in height just 4,500 years ago at the time of the Flood. This is begging the question because the premise of their argument assumes long ages are true in order to argue that long ages are true (and, thus, that the Flood could not have happened).
If, as creationists say, the mountains we have today formed rapidly, starting during the Flood, then there is no problem with the amount of water we have today covering the Earth. Thus, the Flood account only seems inconsistent if you don't use all of the Flood model's premises. Taken together, the Flood model explains consistently the evidence we have in the geologic record.
Because of their presuppositions – namely, that what we see today was caused by slow changes over millions or billions of years – it is quite common to see evolutionists fall into this type of logical fallacy.

Today's guest blogger is Rod Carty, a friend of Creation Moments who serves as a co-administrator in our Facebook groups. A scientist, teacher and avid creationist, Rod frequently uses his understanding of logical fallacies to let evolutionists know when they are using them in our Facebook groups.

It seems to me that the most common fallacy I encounter is "begging the question." A very common example of this comes in the form of, "There wasn't enough water in the Biblical Flood to cover all the mountains" or "Where did all the water go?" 

What they are asserting is that there wasn't enough water to cover the present-day mountains. This is fallacious because they are presuming evolutionary time scales for the rates of the mountains forming – that is, millions of years. This means that the mountains we have today would have been nearly identical in height just 4,500 years ago at the time of the Flood. This is begging the question because the premise of their argument assumes long ages are true in order to argue that long ages are true (and, thus, that the Flood could not have happened).

If, as creationists say, the mountains we have today formed rapidly, starting during the Flood, then there is no problem with the amount of water we have today covering the Earth. Thus, the Flood account only seems inconsistent if you don't use all of the Flood model's premises. Taken together, the Flood model explains consistently the evidence we have in the geologic record.

Because of their presuppositions – namely, that what we see today was caused by slow changes over millions or billions of years – it is quite common to see evolutionists fall into this type of logical fallacy.

 

Comments

There is still a problem of "Where is the water" -- let's look at the current sea level. If we were to melt all of the glaciers, polar ice, etc, sea-level would only rise by 200 or so feet.

Mount Everest is at 29,035 feet, a difference of 28,835 feet. Now, according to most creationist websites I've read, they assert that 'rapid mountain formation' took place during the flood and that all mountains were covered with water. This implies that water levels had to have been over 29,000 feet to accommodate these large mountains. So, what DID happen to the rest of the water? What happened to that enormous volume of water needed to cover Everest and other very large mountains?

Your number is incorrect. If the planet were completely flat the water would cover the earth to a depth of nearly three kilometers.

<a href="http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html" title="http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html">http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html</a>
<a href="http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml" title="http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml">http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/DanielChen.shtml</a>

You seem to have missed my point about Mt. Everest. You're still making the same claim I pointed out was fallacious, namely that the present height of Mt. Everest is the height it must have been at the time of the Biblical flood. Paleocurrents show us that in the lowest layers there is no continental nor mountainous differentiation. That is, the direction of water flow is uniform through areas of current continental margins and uniform through areas where mountains exist today. If the continents were there, the water would change course and run downhill into the ocean. If the mountains were there, the water would run downhill away from the mountains. This data clearly indicates the earth was scoured flat or nearly so at the beginning of the Flood. As we move upwards through the geologic layers, we begin to see the continents and the mountains form. Mt. Everest, and pretty much every other mountain on the planet, formed during and after the Flood. The present height of Mt. Everest is a post-Flood value, so it does not disprove the Bible's claim that the Flood covered all the world.

Hi Shawn,

I'm not Rod, but I think I can help you.

You somehow missed the answer to your question. The answer to your question is in the phrase that you placed in quotes ("rapid mountain formation"). Everest of the past is not Everest of today. The flood event produced the mountains of today which explains quite effectively why we can find marine fossils on mountaintops.

Hope this helps,
J.J.

How do you know that Mount Everest was 29,000 feet back at the time of the flood, is my first question?

As well, when the flood occured, the fountains of the deep were broken, as the Bible states. There is an immense reservoir of water held underneath the earths crust, which could easily account for the additional water. I just read an article recently that suggested that this water which is held underneath the earths crust, could easily amount to more than 7 oceans, maybe more.

Thank you, Rod, for elaborating on this. I also read such an article (Creations Moments from 7/23/2012, which cited the research from New Scientist, 8/30/97, pp. 22 26, "Deep Waters.") which actually indicated that because of the way that the waters are stored deep in the earth under intense heat and pressure, locked in minerals like wadsleyite, there is potentially enough water to fill 10 oceans in this mineral alone, and enough water for 30 oceans is concluded based on the water that is brought forth by volcanic eruptions. The Bible refers to these as "the fountains of the deep."

To assume that the mountains of today were the same height as the time before all this seismic activity began is truly begging the question. Your point is well taken, Rod, that discussions with those who argue from a "given premise" of long ages and "naturalism" expect you to make their same assumptions, though they are not validated, but rather contrived in the imagination and wishful thinking of the evolutionist.

What happens when you just let the evidence speak for itself? Then you move on to explain why there are abundant marine fossils on Mount Everest, why there are surface features (rain drops, animal tracks, etc.) on the layered sedimentary rocks of mountains, why there is no fossilized soil between those layers, why hard brittle rock bends for miles without any cracks like it was once a mud flow, why there are polystrate fossils, and why, in the midst of begging all of these questions, do the fossils NOT present what Darwin said was necessary to validate his theory: transitional gradations from one species to another.

Indeed, we are dealing with more than one logical fallacy here. All that is needed to advance true science is honesty without presumption. The Creation (which accounts for the 1st Law of Thermodynmics), the Curse (which accounts for the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics), and the Catastrophe (which accounts for the Fossil Evidence answering to a global flood) together stand as the only sensible explanation for the evidence which absolutely points to Divine intervention on every level.

I found an excerpt from a "Creation Moment" titled "The Fountains Of The Deep" that would explain how the mountains were covered with water and where the water probably went to: "
When God ended the flooding, we are told that God closed the fountains of the deep, suggesting that they continue to exist, albeit with less water than at creation. In 1997, scientists said that they may have found an astonishing reservoir of water deep in the earth.

The water they believe they found does not exist in huge underground oceans. The water is tied up in minerals, held there by the tremendous pressures and temperatures deep in the earth. Researchers have shown, for example, that a mineral called wadsleyite – which exists only at temperatures above 1,800 degrees (F) and is found as deep as 400 miles below the earth’s surface – can still hold water. Scientists have figured that if 60 percent of this layer is wadsleyite, as seismic data indicate, it could contain enough water to fill 10 oceans. Researchers have also analyzed the amount of this water that is brought to the surface during volcanic eruptions and concluded from their findings that there could be enough water deep in the earth to fill 30 oceans! Because of the way the water is stored, scientists don't expect it to all be released at once."

Mt. Everest is covered with sea shells and ocean sediment. That evidence alone does not determine if the mountains formed quickly or slowly. It doen't seem to help or weaken either theory.

Has there not been evidence at the heights of Mt. Everest of marine fossil remains? When Genesis speaks of the "fountains of the deep opening up" along with the changes in the firmament (sky), this merely scratches the surfiace as to understanding fully how this action orchestrated by this unfanthomable God of the Bible partook in this action upon the people He had created with freewill, who had turned away from Him. Then, as now, He wants only to be made known to these people He made, as Adam was fashioned, to love, (revere, obey) Him.

Since no document has as many proofs of its "history", if you will, (the Illiad is the next closest) I would have to have greater faith to believe in the theory of evolution, with all its unanswered questions of any evidence of one species changing into another. The proven idea of one part of an organism on the molecular level being dependent upon the other molecular part, is evidence enough that the organism these parts make up could not evolve outside of their own species.

Whether a person chooses to put their faith in evolution (the generally held theory that goes with secularism), or God, (the one of the Bible) it is still faith against faith. Faith put in evolution allows ones pride to stay uninterrupted as this world of postmodernism we live in continues. In our postmodern era, the view people become entrapped in is one of rationalization—if I mess up, I can find ways to fix, cover up, dilute, or sweep my problem out of other people's sight. Evidence has shown how much more unhappiness results by dealing with life on ones own.

Since God IS unfanthomable by our standards, He was merciful, not wanting to lose us to our own perversions, but in this dispensation of time God sent to us His Son who died so that when we choose to believe in Jesus, and why He came to take our sins upon Him, we would be made free from this subculture that puts so much pressure upon us in so many ways. God's love continues for the vilest of humans...and many will choose to ignore, some will come late to this realization, some early, some not at all: but this I know— were it not for God giving us free will, He would not know of the kind of love that could be received from us (His creation made in the likeness of Adam, the first to have a fallen nature).

There were some mountains were there not? The ark settled on Mount Ararat.

Remember it was said that the mountains formed during and after the flood.

Like mentioned above, there is no telling what the landscape was like prior to the flood. Yes there were mountains, but how high were they? And like mentioned in one of the comments above, the fact that marine fossils are found today on mountain tops suggest without a doubt that these were once covered by an ocean.

Most of the high mountains were formed during the year-long flood after the earth had been covered with water and all life destroyed. As the earth broke up and the continents started to form as tectonic plates moved and land masses slammed into each other, mountains like Everest and Ararat were formed. After the waters receded, the ark then settled on Ararat.

Forget this silly "how old is the Earth" junk. Creation Science is foolishness, and does not correctly represent Genesis. Old Earth Creationism is false doctrine, that rejects literal interpretation of Genesis. Instead of discussing the age of Earth, how about discussing the age of the Moon? It has hardly had any geologic activity since Creation Week (168 hours), 4.6 billion years ago.

Earth has had several geologic events, extinctions, and restorations over it's history. But the Moon has been about stable except for the times it has been bombarded with massive objects, which the lingering evidence can be observed whenever the Moon is visible.

Here is a better question. Every impact you see that has occurred on the Moon, more than twenty has hit the Earth. When did this bombardment occur? Before Adam and Eve, or after "the fall"? Answer that using the scriptures!! The only true rendition of Genesis is the "Observations of Moses".

If you would stop thinking that you know more than God, you might learn something, both about the age of the earth, and of the moon, for that matter. They are essentially the same age, approximately 6,000 years. If you think you know differently, you will, one day, find out that you were wrong and God was right.

P.S. It's hard to believe your research is spot-on, seeing as how you don't know the difference between a contraction and a personal pronoun. I suggest you become more literate on all levels before you presume to be an expert on anything. Learn to spell before you start spouting off that you know the age of things.

The mountains as we know of did not form until after the flood.
We know how mountians form by either volcanic activity or plate shifting.
According to the Bible, it was in the days of Peleg the earth divided.
IE: the continents went adrift and formed the mountain ranges we know of today.
This also caused a lot of volcanic activity in the process.
This happened about 300 years after the flood of Noah @ the destruction of the tower of Babel.
This was God's way of making man spread out through the earth and thus the Races (ethnic groups) of man began.

I've been debating evolutionists for decades, and as Carty correctly points out, their pre-suppositions preclude any sort of meaningful dialogue before it can even begin. The sad thing about it is that they are so steeped in humanistic thinking, having been brought up in the public school system all their lives, that objectivity is non-existent. Their ignorance is surpassed only by their arrogance.

This is why I point out a few relevent facts about the topic, challenge them to think for a change instead of spouting the atheistic "party line", and move on.

If you'd like a source of great information concerning answers to the common objections that atheists/evolutionists always seem to come up with, check out BaloneyDetector.com

Thank you, R. Puter, for this referral to the Baloney Detector. I found it at <a href="http://creationsafaris.com/crevbd.htm" title="http://creationsafaris.com/crevbd.htm">http://creationsafaris.com/crevbd.htm</a>. Is that the same one to which you are referring? There certainly is a wealth of information, detailing the logical fallacies that plague a conversation when someone wants to dodge or distort the truth. And yes, we are facing a generation that has been brought up in a public school system, and we are facing the horrible harvest of that costly mistake. Objectivity and critical thinking that allow the logic of cause and effect, unpolluted by an a priori commitment to "not allow a Divine foot in the door" (Richard Lewontin), is so removed from their thinking, that a dismissive arrogance is often a cover for their willful ignorance. While I find the same hostile, unreasoning resistance in many, there are others who, when presented with the ability to see through these logical fallacies, are drawn to the liberating truth evident in the Author of both Scripture and (true) science alike. We have a commitment (1 Peter 3:15) to reason with those who will listen from the generation which has been subjected to those fallacies. And we have the children of this budding generation before (I am thinking of my 6 grandchildren) who must know how to "speak with the enemy in the gate" rather than retreat in the seclusion of unchallenged tradition (Psalm 127:3-5).

Evolutionists always start out with the premise that there is no design to the universe, so everything must be ram-horned into that mindset. They assume that they know the size of mountains in the past — they don't. They assume they know how much water is on the earth — they don't. Talk about begging the question. If you take away their assumptions, they have nothing.

P.S. I'd like to see an evolutionist in the midst of just one really good storm. Then tell the Lord he doesn't have enough water to do as he pleases, thank you.

In a similar way, they say that the Grand Canyon was caused by millions of years of erosion, yet, if that was the case, why aren't the Ganges and the Amazon grand canyons also?

Religious texts such as the Quran offer insights into many things that scientists didn't "discover" until hundreds of years later. If people were to read the texts in their original languages, they would better be able to understand what the prophets are telling us about how God created the world.

I know that the Bible includes insights into many things that weren't "discovered" until hundreds or even thousands of years later. What specifically is found in the Quran?

Rod, I have mentioned this before, but if the topography of the Earth changed as rapidly as you claim it does then there will be some evidence for that, anmd I notice that you haven't provided ANY evidence for this statement which is a begging the question fallacy of your own.

The LAW of natural selection was discovered from evidence that admits no other plausible explanation. Unlike Creationism, it is the conclusion reached based on evidence, not the finding of evidence to support a presupposition based on myth. It just boggles my mind that in 2012 we still find seemingly intelligent people supporting such myths. Evolutonary Psychology offers many good theories for why we as a species are so predisposed to belief in a supernatural creator. Dan Dennett's Breaking the Spell is a good starting point. If Creationists were somehow able to bracket their presuppostions and just consider what kinds of explanation the evidence presents, they would see how preposterous they are in continuing to flog what for too long should have been a very dead horse.